FW: Sydney Curnow Vosper - Artist - Origins of name CURNOW

From: Linda Wilson
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2020 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Sydney Curnow Vosper - Artist

Hi Teri,  Interesting!  Did you know that "Curnow", is Cornish for "Cornwall"?  Though it is spelt these days as "Kernow".  Maybe it is a Welsh spelling.

Best Wishes and keep safe

Linda Wilson

FW: Sydney Curnow Vosper - Artist - Article from Agence France Presse

A message from our cousin Helena…

From: Helena Dorr
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2020 5:03 AM
Subject: Sydney Curnow Vosper - Artist

Dear Terri,

Being a very very distant cousin (descendant of Ezekiel Vosper of Redruth, through his daughter Joan, wife of Stephen Simmons and mother of Ezekiel Simmons, my 6x grandfather) I thought you and the other Vosper cousins might be interested in this article from Agence France Presse.

Best wishes to all during this crisis. I hope you're all staying safe and well!

Helena 

-----------------------------

Begin forwarded message:

From: Peter Dorr
Date: 30 March 2020 at 12:48:35 BST
Subject: Agence Bretagne Presse

https://mobile.abp.bzh/sydney-curnow-vosper-a-cornish-artist-who-linked-wales-and-brittany-37902

Y DNA and the Jewish connection - Part 1

Good morning everyone,

It’s a rainy day here in Southern California, so perfect for responding to emails.  I got the following questions from Cousin Glenda, and it reminded me how disjointed all this information can become to cousins who are new to the group and those who are not as familiar with DNA ins and outs as I am.  I’ll try to answer Glenda’s questions below her inquiry….

From: Glenda
Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2020 12:58 PM
Subject: Y DNA and the Jewish connection

Hi Teri,

With your recent new information, I am confused about the Jewish connection.  Is Vosper DNA showing a connection to Silesia?  I searched through your blog and our emails and can’t find the answer.  What is the DNA marker that connects? J (M304) or J 267?

I’m also confused by the information connecting the early Vospers to the mining industry, the knowledge coming out of Spain and the inference (that I read) that the Vospers may have come into Cornwall then --- or were they already there from a much earlier date eg 1066, which could mean Silesia?

Thanks for your help,

Glenda

Here is my very long and detailed response.  If you are not an Ancestry subscriber and would like me to invite you to my tree so you can see these links, please let me know.  Alternately, tell me which links you are interested in, and I will email to you.

1.  Connection to Jewish heritage.   We have two forms of evidence about the Jewish heritage – there are various references in literature that state that the Vosper family was Jewish, most of which are documented on my tree at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/47009625/person/24454081783/facts and there is DNA evidence.  First, the literary documentation:

a.  From Visitations of Cornwall:

i.                   

                              ii.  This shows that an “… Vosper of St. Neot, a Jewish refugee, settled in Cornwall”.  Based on the names of the children, and PARISH records of Cornwall, we believe this to be Johis or Johanes Vosper (https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/47009625/person/6961584721/facts)

                               iii.  Page 624, https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Visitations_of_Cornwall.html?id=t0U7AQAAIAAJ – this is the 1887 version, which includes details from the 1530, 1573 &1620 versions.

b.  From Notes and Queries:

                              i.                 

c.  From Traditions and Hearthside Stories of West Cornwall:

                               i.  

d.  Cousin Malcolm states:

                               i.  

e.  David Hillman article published by the Cornwall Historical Society:

                             i.  

                             ii.  This again quotes many of the same sources, but refers to the Jews expelled from Spain.  My understanding is that the Jews expelled from Spain were Sephardic Jews, not Ashkenazi. 

                                                  iii.    David’s article is very interesting, and you can see the various pages on my tree beginning at https://www.ancestry.com/mediaui-viewer/tree/47009625/person/6961584721/media/a4f14608-6d3f-4971-a84f-2503443bbb3a

                                                 iv.      David is on our Cousin’s mailing list, but he rarely ever corresponds.  His article is on the profile page for Johanes Vosper as a fact of 1500, at https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/47009625/person/6961584721/facts. 

Interesting information from Joe Flood on the Jewish population of Cornwall

 

As far as I know, none of the existing family lines have any recollection of being “secretly Jewish”.   Every indication I have seen is that the family converted to Christianity some time prior to the 1500’s.  We have no way of knowing if that was a genuine conversion, or if it was politically motivated, in order to avoid possible death, retribution, or expulsion from their homes.

 

If you are interested in seeing more about the Jewish origins of the family, I have put a “placeholder person” named “Jewish (Placeholder) Vosper” on my tree at:  https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/47009625/person/24454081783/facts that contains information from various sources.

 

 

In looking over the information on this profile I came upon this page:

 

 

Note the comment, “For some time they were engaged in mining operations.”   -  I had forgotten about this, and it does correspond with Joe Flood’s comments about mining.

 

There may be additional information under Johanes Vosper, the earliest documented Vosper on our line, on my tree:  https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/47009625/person/6961584721/facts

 

Cousin Teri

Exciting news, we have a VOSPER Y DNA match!

Hello Cousins!  

 

As you may recall, we have been trying for several years to find another male Vosper to do a Y-DNA test to match Robert Vosper OR John Vosper of Australia.  Recently Kenneth Vosper found us, and got his Y-DNA test done – and it comes in as a match to Robert Vosper, with a J-M267 haplogroup.  This confirms our Jewish family origins.  Here is the match, as shown from Robert's results:

 

 

This shows a confirmation along the following lines, with Robert Vosper and Mary Bawden as common ancestors:

 

 

Of interest is the genetic difference of 4, shown in the first column of the match.  That is a pretty significant difference over 4 generations on just 37 markers.  I am not a Y DNA expert, but I don't think it should be so high – that indicates at least one mutation every generation.  I have copied Joe Flood, who is the administrative head of the Cornwall Project at FTDNA and hope he will have some information about this, and whether we should be concerned about it.

 

Ken, could you please go to your FTDNA account and under MyProjects, request membership in the following projects: 

 

Ken, I don't think you will be eligible for the Cornwall Advanced YDNA project unless you do some  additional testing, but I think Joe can give you some guidance about that.     Also, could you please go to your Profile page and enter the following information:

To do this go to your account settings (drop down under your name and kit number in upper right), and then Genealogy

For paternal ancestry information, you should enter Johanes Vosper, d. 1590 St. Melion, Cornwall

Then go to Surnames and add Vosper and Trevosper:

 

Robert Vosper, under Joe Flood's guidance has purchased additional testing and now shows the following haplogroup:

 

 

 

Joe, I want to assure you that we belong in the Cornwall group, so here is the list of ancestors we all descend from with the Vosper lineage birth and death locations noted:

 

 

Hoping this communication finds everyone well and happy!

 

Cousin Teri

(correspondent for Robert Norris Vosper on FTDNA)